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Post by WilliamH on May 8, 2003 2:09:59 GMT -5
First, I'm not writing this to invite flames or anything; indeed, I'm curious.
Most artists (not just musical... poets, artists, writers, etc.), create their works in their medium because that is how they choose to express their ideas. However, most notably in the music industry, it seems that inspiration has fallen by the wayside in favor of a regular release schedule.
There are those who say that inspiration is a myth and the only way that true genius is attained is through constant work... Forcing yourself to produce even though you may be out of ideas or not happy with what you're doing, etc. It's a method that writers use to generate 300-page books. If you're a Stephen King fan, you'll probably know that (at least, back when he was in his "productive" phase) he forced himself to write every day from 9 to 5, like a regular job.
But I digress.
This being a Filter board, I'll use Filter as an example. Of course, Short Bus was the product of a lot of hard work (as are all of Filter's albums - I'm not making any claim that the members don't work hard). But Short Bus also had a great deal of inspiration, as far as my opinion is concerned. There is a mix of machine-based atmosphere and youthful aggression there that I had never heard before and I haven't heard since. Why? This album was the product of inspiration and creativity and application of creativity that was unbounded by expectation.
That's the key - expectation. Such a long time passed between SB and TOR that the expectation for the album probably affected the production process. Hear me out.
When a person makes an album (or writes a novel or paints a picture or whatever), originally they do it for their own personal creative exploration. But then people EXPECT that person to keep producing. Then, that person starts feeling like they have to make another album. (For the purposes of this discussion I am ignoring contractual obligations.) It is unavoidable that this feeling affects the production process.
TOR was important in that it showed monumental growth. I'm not arguing that fact - indeed, I freely say that at least in a technical sense that album was an immeasurable improvement over SB. However, while certain songs were catchy and tuney and others displayed aggression and technical prowess, the inspiration evident in SB was, for me, lacking.
Don't misunderstand me: TOR was a great album. But let's face it, there are lots of great albums out there. The question is, will this album (or any other, by any other band, or any novel by an other novelist, etc.) last the test of time? Thirty years from now will I tell my grandchildren about the first time I heard TOR? I doubt it. There are historic albums out there... I won't waste time or space here picking them out. But they were written a very long time ago and today remain in the ear of the masses. These albums may not be musically important anymore, but they carry a sense of Institution with them that cannot be interfered with.
These are the albums that are the (sometimes inexplicably) coincident of magnificent talent, timing, technology, and above all else, inspiration.
SB has a definite shot at that. I really feel that that album represents a milestone in musical evolution. However, TOR won't. In my opinion.
You are asking where The Amalgamut lies in this, and I must regrettably say that it doesn't fare well.
Before I explain that, however, I want to make clear that yes, I know who I am talking to. There are certain people on this board whose level of band idolatry reaches the outer limits of even my own tolerance. Yes, I am a Filter fan, and I look forward to their next album, and I've bought (not downloaded) every album and single and soundtrack, etc.
The ideal is that those who appreciate a band should be able to critique and discuss and pick apart the music of their chosen interest. Here, it seems that some Filter fans are so "territorial" that those who would disagree are flamed.
But, again, I digress. Apologies.
The Amalgamut seemed to me to be a product of the "it's time to make another album" mindset. I realize, yes, that there may or may not be certain contractual obligations that artists are under, but I'm not looking into that. This is a discussion of ideals, not fiscal responsibilities.
Was The Amalgamut as immediate and pure as SB? No. I think even the most staunch and stubborn Filter fan would agree, although I do NOT speak for anyone other than myself. Many of those who post on this board were surprised that it didn't do well; I am not surprised. There are those who may argue that there wasn't enough support behind the album, that there was no advertising, etc. I'm speaking as a Filter fan who bought the album the day it came out, without seeing so much as a poster or a billboard that advertised it. I am not going to rely on the "excuse" that there was no support for the album. I speak honestly and without malice when I say that the album felt like emotionless hard rock. Note: Screaming does not necessarily mean emotion, no matter how much current trends in rock say so. I was supremely disappointed at how much The Amalgamut seemed to blend into the background noise. It was such a far step away from SB that I was not surprised in the slightest when it didn't do all that well.
But this is all leading up to my original point, oh-so-many paragraphs ago.
There are those who say that everything Filter does is incredible and that they can do no wrong and I really feel sorry for those fans because they need to realize that human beings have off days. Humans write bad songs every once in a while. This discussion is for those Filter fans who can agree that as mortals the bandmembers can do wrong.
The inpiration is the most important part of music, or painting, or writing. Without inspiration, what is left? Product. Mass product.
So here is the question that all this is leading up to. There has been much discussion and speculation as to the sound of the next Filter album. Can you see that Filter has changed - not only in the positive ways (technical prowess, playing ability, etc.) but also in the - not negative but... disappointing(?) ways? Do you look forward to the next Filter album with vigor, or guarded anticipation? What are your thoughts on the "inspiration" issue which I have waved as my flag here?
Again, as a caveat - I come simply expressing ideas. I do not wish to upset anyone; don't just go flaming me if you don't like some of what I said. I look forward very much to hearing your ideas and opinions.
-William
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Post by RichFactWebmistress on May 8, 2003 2:27:38 GMT -5
I think you're right in some cases when it comes to some songs on The 'mut versus SB. But I think there are songs like God Damn Me/Only Way that for me made me feel and enjoy like the other albums had.
I look to the next album with vigor. Why? Because Rich is doing what he needs to do to express his feelings about the past few months of his life. I think he has a lot of inspiration now versus last time, at least to me. I love each album but I'm not silly nilly about it. I don't think I have to have a "great" album from an artist I like EVERY time. I like each album for different reasons and those reasons change all the time. I am expecting an emotional record from Rich the next time as he is writing alone and working through problems that might have interrferred with the making of the 'mut, in all honesty. That makes the music that much more charged and inspired, I think.
It's two am and I'm tired so I could be wrong. But there is an answer. The word in the FDG is Discussion so this is what it should be about. I know sometimes it gets crazy but we all get excited sometimes. And yes, Fitler is made by human beings which is a good thing cause if they were say that "Boy George Cat" on VH1 I'd be afraid. I think sometimes it's the humanity and flaws that make the music better for me, rather it'll be listened to 30, 40 or 100 years from now. It's that which makes me listen again and again.
RFW
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Post by unwillingsong on May 8, 2003 7:30:39 GMT -5
William--that was a really thoughtful post. So many points--I'll just list my favorites:
Like you said--that's true no matter WHAT business you're in. Even outside of business--personal stuff, too.
Yep--but art is so subjective--and history is too. History is all about perspective. I may tell my grandkids about the first time I heard TOR--it may hold that kind of significance for me in my life and my personal history. (The first thing that sprung to mind for me, though, was "Smells Like Teen Spirit"...I soooo...clearly remember the first time I heard that song--and the feeling that something changed in the world...in my world...) But I will definitely tell them about the first time I heard "American Cliche" (live) and it led me to buy the Mut--and I found "Columind"...and that ultimately led me here...and to a lot of great experiences...what we value and why--with music or anything else--is so subjective.
I think you're generalizing--and making a claim that is arguable. My counterargument (which goes along with what RFW was saying) would be that there is a great deal of emotion in many of the songs...and that emotion is not all we/I look for in a song (as in personalized emotion). Sometimes I like political or cultural commentary...Sometimes I do just want to scream or rock out...for you it felt emotionless...it's not like that for everyone...and those of us who enjoy it are not blindly loyal or whatever. We're just having different experiences.
As for inspiration--who knows. When creativity is at it's best and purest it comes from a drive so deep within that it is NECESSITY. There's something you HAVE to say--couldn't NOT say--HAVE to express. I hope Rich is working from that place...
One more thing:
Flaming occurs on every bb I have ever poked around in--but I have never seen flaming HERE--not in a real and honest discussion about Filter. I HAVE seen a lot of celebrating--and there's nothing wrong with that.
*Edited to say: Thanks for taking the time to post this. Good stuff.
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Post by Amalgamut on May 8, 2003 7:44:40 GMT -5
And surely, no one would flame anyone who's got a valid argument ... You are right about the inspiration on SB, William. I think someone called The Amalgamut "over-produced" in an earlier post. I do not really agree, but I can see that in many ways, it does not have the spontaneity which is evident on SB and a little less evident on TOR. The question is if this spontaneity is strictly necessary. Admitted, I like spontaneity in music, but I also enjoy an album that is well-produced. IMO, none of Filter's albums are in danger of becoming part of the mass of music that has no identity and to me, that is what matters. I love what Filter has been so far and I hope we'll hear much more from the band. Good post! Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  Ama |
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Post by B13 on May 8, 2003 8:54:32 GMT -5
I think someone called The Amalgamut "over-produced" in an earlier post. If you want over-production, just check out Linkin Park's albums! SHEESH!! They lay it on with a trowel!! Good tunes, but DAMN!!!!!!!!!! I think The Amalgamut was just the right side of "raw" (or "rough") sounding - which is the way I prefer to hear albums. I like to hear musical "grit" in what I listen to because that to me is what music and musicians are all about. If a song sounds good in it's "raw 'n' gritty" form, then a little bit of "tarting up" can really make it sparkle! JMHO! (I'm hoping that complimentary ramble made sense... I've been working late and starting early (like going to bed at 11pm and starting again at 6am) working on two projects at once! ;D ) |
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Post by l to the ennix on May 8, 2003 17:44:30 GMT -5
I will let most points of your arguements stand as either valid or honest opinion, and won't dwell on them. I would like, however, to pull one major theme from your essay and present counterarguement.
In the future, this is likewise my opinion as yours was yours, what will be remembered from Filter as it stands now is the following. People will remember "Hey Man Nice Shot" and "Take A Picture," but many will not know to tie the two songs together to the same band, and many will not know Filter was the band behind either of them -- they will, however, automatically sing along should they come on the oldies station or the club PA. From there, anyone who is into music enough to know that Filter wrote both songs, I would conjecture that Trip Like I Do would be the next most likely remembered song, followed by the two lead-off tracks from the second and third albums. ("Welcome to the Fold" and "Where Do We Go From Here" respectively).
As far as an album is concerned, I disagree that Short Bus was a major turning point in music.
It was, and is, an outstanding album, and I do not claim as some do that it is simply "Ten Inch Nails" or something to that effect, but, stylistically, it does not delve far from the early Chicago "Industrial Metal" sound as pioneered by Reznor, Jourgensen and the rest. Of the three albums, if one is to be remembered by the populace at large, it will more than likely be "Title of Record." The banner single (TAP) was larger, and the surrounding singles (WTTF and The Best Things) gained airplay on a level that the SB singles did not.
The album also shows a distinct musical style that, while it can be traced to Industrial Metal, is no longer a "showpiece" of that genre. Take the first song..the screaming is in the verse, whereas the chorus is sung. Its small, but this is something that Reznor has rarely done, and never on his radio singles. There are bongos in TAP, and the drumming for the album switches from 4-4 rock all the way to breakbeat at times. The flow of the album fits better together than either its predecessor or its follow-up.
From where the band stands now, if we played with the "What if they all died today" scenario, the band would be remembered for two, maybe three to five songs. Their albums would probably sink to the level of those of Creedence Clearwater or Three Dog Night, wherein everyone knows the band and the songs, but damned if you can name the album titles.
To those who know them, they will inspire future generations same as anyone, but if you're looking for a "White Album" or "52nd Street," I'd look elsewhere.
Now..just so as this doesn't end on a sad note, a blueprint on raising Filter's status up a notch: Video for American Cliche' will reach with tepid response, I'll imagine, save from the industrial/metal/hardcore scene in which Filter is still listed on many people's Top 10 lists. The Only Way, released to video at the same time as radio, ESPECIALLY if done in the summer, has the capacity to match TAP. People will begin to tie TAP and TOW together, and HMNS will be tied in in time. Now, the best possible route from here is to have that rumored track for the Matrix show up as the lead off single (much as POD's "Zion" for this oen) for Revolutions in the fall. From the inertia built up from TOW, the single, as long as it is as well written as is expected, should become a radio mainstay long enough to last the band into January-February, when they should tour again. Have the tour lead into a major summer festival, and sales of "Amalgamut" should skyrocket. The summer touring will give them enough momentum to last until 2005, as long as they start hyping a new album by late fall 2004. So long as they keep up appearances, they can milk the hype as long as they need to -- the same effect they had after Short Bus, where the second album appeared on Spin's "Most Anticipated Albums of the Year" list for three straight years.
Again, the same caveat, these are simply conjectures and observances. Take with a grain of what you must.
-Jarrod
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Post by RichFactWebmistress on May 8, 2003 18:01:48 GMT -5
The only thing I'll add now is this: No matter what people think 100 years from now of ANY of the bands we listen to and enjoy RIGHT NOW, all that matters is that they effected our lives in some way, made us think of things differently or feel things we hadn't before and that we were there to experience such things. Because you know what? People say this or that sucks that we may like right now and we'll be dead by the time they comment on these albums if at all so who cares? I want to see the band do well just like anyone else, but sometimes you know what? It's all about what each person takes from it and gets from it and if they feel and think that's all that matters. The rest is left up to history to decide. And yes, the Beatles are known by just about everyone but I, honest to god, have ran into people MY age who say "Beatles who? Stones who? Led Zeppelin who? The Who, who?" let alone knowing ANY of the albums we all call timeless. So what if Filter isn't known from corner to corner. Big deal. Just take the music and evaluate it for yourself and let the big wig critics rip it apart for WHY it sucks or WHY it's so great for hundreds of years to come.
RFW
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Post by unwillingsong on May 8, 2003 18:18:29 GMT -5
The only thing I'll add now is this: No matter what people think 100 years from now of ANY of the bands we listen to and enjoy RIGHT NOW, all that matters is that they effected our lives in some way, made us think of things differently or feel things we hadn't before and that we were there to experience such things. Because you know what? People say this or that sucks that we may like right now and we'll be dead by the time they comment on these albums if at all so who cares? I want to see the band do well just like anyone else, but sometimes you know what? It's all about what each person takes from it and gets from it and if they feel and think that's all that matters. The rest is left up to history to decide. And yes, the Beatles are known by just about everyone but I, honest to god, have ran into people MY age who say "Beatles who? Stones who? Led Zeppelin who? The Who, who?" let alone knowing ANY of the albums we all call timeless. So what if Filter isn't known from corner to corner. Big deal. Just take the music and evaluate it for yourself and let the big wig critics rip it apart for WHY it sucks or WHY it's so great for hundreds of years to come. RFW EVERYTHING you said...  |
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SANdoZ
Butt Pirate
so the FDG wont let me be or let me be me so let me see
Posts: 48
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Post by SANdoZ on May 8, 2003 19:50:40 GMT -5
Thats a hell of a post William, and a great read. im not going to write an essay because i havent put the time and effort into my thoughts like you have, but I did want to write to say i enjoyed reading your post. The replies have been great as well. I'll certainly be telling my grandkids about smells like.. before telling them about Filter, however i'll still tell people at any opputunity now that Filter was the best live gig ive ever seen. The production issues were interesting. if anything i think Nirvana albums got better with more production each time. Personally i love the production on ToR. It takes the raw power from SB and makes it louder.. and in the end i'll put TOR on before the first on more occasions (of course i still give SB a burl on the stereo enough to keep it close to my heart). I dont think any of Filter's records to date will be talked about on music shows in 50 years as one of the greats but who the hell cares. im sure a lot of the people on this board are sick of waiting for their friends and the greater world to tune into filter because they are amazing but at the end of the day you stop caring and simply crank up american cliche' yeah? well i do i accept it.. i accept none of my friends are ever gonna like VAST either, even tho i could listen to him all day, if it wasnt for filter. hmm, if anyone has digressed on this thread its me back to original post - yeah the MUT wasnt the quality of the previous two. but i dont think it was the production.. im all for it.. its working so far, i love the sound on the MUT, but inspiration wise i havent found the underlying music as moving for mine. but Filter's 3rd best record still shits all over the majority of music i can find to suit my tastes, so as long as rich keeps spitting stuff out for me to enjoy sonically i just dont mind.. hmm did my post serve any purpose here.. im not sure. i better go seeya jono oops, better do an obligatory smiley post:  cheers! |
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Post by WilliamH on May 8, 2003 21:24:55 GMT -5
First, thank you all for your comments.
RFW - I'm sorry; I was with you up until that line but I have to admit that I have no idea what that is. I'm completely stymied.
Jono - Finally! Another person who likes VAST! I know only one other one who I've met in person. Counting him, and you, that's two people I know who not only have heard of them but like them (besides myself).
Anyway, a reply:
Jarrod, your post really struck me and I'd like to talk about that for a minute. I'm not going to pick it apart piece by piece but, following your model, I'd like to discuss one of the larger themes that your argument is based on.
The main gist of your post was to identify the band by certain tracks off each album; certainly, I don't mind this at all. Everyone has an album (Filter or not) where one particular song may stand out for them, or two songs or three. I'm sure that many people have maybe those one or two golden albums which they can listen to straight through with no skipping at all. (But that, dear friends, is a topic for another discussion.)
Anyway, getting to the point, I believe that scrutinizing a band's individual songs on a point-by-point system is limiting, and doesn't provide a grander view of that band's work. Obviously.
If this were a perfect world, using Filter as an example, each person would be able to identify them by the albums, not just the individual tracks. But I must admit that it is indeed not a perfect world and therefore bands are identified with their hits (ignoring the Big Ones like Zeppelin, Sabbath, etc.). But let's look at this from another angle.
Take, for example, physics (which I choose because I happen to be looking at my physics textbook as I write this). In the laboratory, or on paper, everything works. The conditions are all controlled and the ball bounces how high you say it will on paper because you already know all the variables and there are no outside forces acting on the systems, especially if you are working with pure formulas on paper - nothing can interfere. However, in the real world, you drop that same ball and your chances of guessing where it will bounce are eradicated. There are simply too many variables that are impossible to control. The wind, the unevenness of the surface, etc. However, that same ball is working under the same laws of physics; there are just many more uncontrollable vectors working on it than we can calculate.
Bring this to the Filter discussion. Can we judge Filter based solely on their songs which are released to radio? Certainly not; but that is how a great deal of people will perceive Filter. Unfortunate, no?
I believe, as I hinted at before, that the true sciences of that band will only be discovered when we can take their work as a whole (or, for the purposes of this discussion, their albums each separately) and study them. This means seeing their planes rather than their points.
Perhaps I was unclear in my original post; if I was, I regret the miscommunication. I was looking at Filter's work as a whole, rather than on a song-by-song basis. For example, I can definitely say that there are songs on Title of Record which are vastly superior to those on Short Bus; however, in my opinion, Short Bus stands as a whole greater than the sum of its parts, and that whole is better than that of Title of Record, and certainly The Amalgamut.
Now, there are the posts regarding production. Think back to the days in Phenomonology... They weren't dealing with a big production budget and a big-time producer and everything like that. Filter was getting started and they were lean and mean and damn good. Undeniably, their success has altered their songwriting process. I'm curious... What if Filter wrote a bunch of songs, played them enough on their own to get them down, then ran through them once while recording? Then touch it up a little in postproduction and bang, there's the next Filter album (by the way, speaking of the White Album, the Beatles used this process a LOT while recording their biggest hits - write it, learn it, then run through it once while recording... some of the best music ever). I could imagine it would sound very dirty and raw. As you know I'm a fan of Short bus. That kind of production process might bring back that spontaneity and intensity that The Amalgamut lacked.
Opinions? Ideas?
-William
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Post by l to the ennix on May 9, 2003 20:34:01 GMT -5
William -
I feel, perhaps, we have both misread the other's posts. I thought you were arguing the possibilities or lack thereof of the specific albums or tracks being remembered in general, whereas now I get the feeling that you were talking in ideal one vs. the other terms, without public opinion entering into it.
I was going off of the following:
If I misread this, I apologize. I took it as a statement on which albums would be remembered by the general mindset years from now. This is what I based my arguements on...believe me, I was not judging the merits of each song for their worth -- "It's Over" stands as my favorite song from the band to date -- but rather was arguing each song or album's chances to be that "historic album" or song.
- Jarrod
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Post by Cerberust on May 12, 2003 15:18:52 GMT -5
Fiona Apple sure is taking her time...
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Post by WilliamH on May 13, 2003 1:39:02 GMT -5
Jarrod-
Yes, it seems like I definitely misinterpreted your original post. Sorry about that.
Also, I tend to get a little wordy sometimes, especially about ideas that I'm excited about. Sorry if that tangled people up.
And I have no idea what Fiona Apple has to do with any of this.
-William
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Post by FilterdinBoston on May 14, 2003 6:21:37 GMT -5
I cant type so much right now cuz i am at work,..but i wanted to just say that yeah, the 'mut wasnt the same quality, but it was not the band's fault entirely. Reprise was a bunch (IS a bunch) of dinks for not doin some legwork and puttin the album out there....ooooh but if Enya farts, they will put a billboard up in Times's Square!! Ok, anyways....secondly, i have a fear that if this next album doesnt do well either (cuz of those Reprise dinks or other reasons) then will they drop them from the label?! I'd cry.
-Boston
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Post by MarlboroWoman on May 17, 2003 16:26:46 GMT -5
They can find themselves another. Or better yet, start their own. Rich has his own studio and he has great taste in music.  |
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<--- Filter live 2002
